Flood Boundary Hide & Seek: Part 2ish

In part 1 of this expedition, I started to explore the first of two flood boundary hypotheses. I’m going to try and answer some questions (and give some new insight) in this post about the Pliocene/Pleistocene flood boundary before we move on to a different area.

Some Background Info

Okay, so about 60 years ago Morris/Whitcomb wrote their influential book The Genesis Flood. In their book, they questioned the reality of the geologic column. But today, there is a wide consensus from YEC geologists that the layering of rocks that we see in textbooks is correct. They just think that the dates scientists use are wrong.

So if the geologic column is accurate we should be able to find in the rocks, where the flood of Noah begins and where it ends. There are really 2 groups of people we will call the late-flood boundary people and the early flood boundary people. (There are other views shown here but they are uncommon)

Also, I want to point out that I am only using YEC journals, blogs, articles, and conference papers for my posts.

Late Flood Boundary vs Early Flood Boundary

Late Flood Boundary people believe that the flood ends at the Pliocene/Pleistocene line on the geologic column. The Pliocene/Pleistocene are the names of the different Epochs. Here is where it gets a little confusing. Sometimes people will refer to this as the Neogene/Quarternary or the Late Cenozoic, but it is all talking about the same thing. A helpful way of thinking about it is that this group of YECs just believes that the flood ended in the rocks that regular scientists think are 2.6 million years old.

The other group of people believes that the flood ended at the K-Pg boundary. K-Pg means the Cretaceous-Paleogene boundary. That is the famous area where people have speculated that an asteroid wiped out the dinosaurs. So this group of YEC scientists thinks that the flood ended in the rocks that normal scientists think are 66 million years old. These are the early flood boundary people because they think that the flood happened early in the fossil record.

Why is the Flood Boundary Important again?

Two of the most studied aspects of YEC Science are baraminology and flood geology. So locating the flood boundary is super important because where we put the boundary affects how we interpret the “created kind.”

What is the usefulness of the Paleobiology Database?

The database contains the geographic locations and rock layers for 1.52 million fossils. You can search the database by Animal and by Geologic Timeframe. Since we were exploring the Pli/Plei flood boundary in the first post, I used those two geologic sections for my search.

And in case you’re worried about the data being influenced by secular science. I’ll quote from a Marcus Ross article in the Journal of Creation. “So can a creationist trust the fossil occurrence data provided in the Paleobiology Database? Absolutely. The details of a fossil’s discovery are empirical data.”

r/Creation - Flood Boundary Hide & Seek: Part 2ish

Full Screen of Paleo Database

So what exactly is the problem with a Pliocene/Pleistocene flood boundary?

The big problem is called: The Biogeographic Distribution of Post-Flood Animals. Or in normal people talk- how did all of the animals leave the ark in Turkey/Iran and get to their various homes today?

And this isn’t a new problem. In Ken Ham’s New Answers Vol. 1 (p. 144) the author says that land bridges from the Ice Age (which lasted for 500 years after the flood) were the most likely way that animals got to where they belong. But Ham is an Australian and he knows that kangaroos are a bit of a problem.

r/Creation - Flood Boundary Hide & Seek: Part 2ish

Wallace Line

The living animals and the Pliocene/Pleistocene fossil animals that we find in Bali are completely different than the animals that we find in Australia. It is known as the Wallace Line that divides Australisian animals from Indonesian.

Another famous YEC is John Woodmorappe. In a presentation from 1990, he talked about the challenges of post-flood animal dispersal. He highlighted several places with endemic animals (endemic meaning only native to a particular place). For example, the Australian marsupials, the animals of Madagascar, flightless birds in Mid-Atlantic islands, and a few different groups of South American animals. His solution is anthropogenic dispersal; this is a clever way of saying, people on boats after Babel floated the various animals to their home locations and dropped them off.

Alright, alright so it’s hard to explain koalas and sloths crawling all the way from the mountains of Turkey. But What does this have to do with the Flood Boundary?

So I wanted to lay the groundwork by first showing that post-flood dispersal of animals is an important topic in YEC science. Now I’ll try and show explicitly why baraminology disproves a Pliocene/Pleistocene flood boundary.

I’m going to be borrowing a lot of my ideas from this 2020 Peer-Reviewed Article from Answers Research Journal. Please Read Here

  1. Baraminology assumes that if two different types of animals can breed and make baby they are the same kind.
  2. From the Bible, we know that Noah took 2 of every unclean kind on the ark.
  3. If the flood boundary is at the Pliocene/Pleistocene then we have a problem.
  4. We know that Foxes, Coyotes, and Wolves are the same kind. They can interbreed so they are the Dog Kind. But we have distinct Foxes, Coyotes, and Wolves on both sides of the flood boundary. To quote from the paper directly, “Kinds are capable of extensive physiological, morphological, and behavioral adaptions. There is no reason to expect the post-Flood descendants of a single surviving pair would diversify into exactly the same variations as those found before the flood.” (p. 242)

Now the YECs I’ve quoted have focused their research on North American animals. But the images from Part I of this expedition were of Kangaroos and Sloths. I highlighted those animals because YECs have been challenged by their post-flood dispersal in the past.

A Pli/Plei flood boundary means that all of these species are taken aboard the ark (since many species, not kinds are found on both sides) and then each species ends up returning to the same exact place that they came from- even though the flood destroyed their world- and they return to the place they came from and nowhere else. And according to Marcus Ross- this would have to happen “Thousands of times on every continent!” That is why he and many other YECs find this to be implausible.

Fine Print

I hope this wasn’t too repetitive and clarified some questions from the first post. I really appreciate the challenges to my ideas and the positive feedback. I have a lot of material I’ve collected over the last year that I’m converting into posts. I may not keep producing at 1 post a day, but it’ll be regular for a while.

Also, I want to reiterate I am a happy follower of Jesus. I am not trying to promote naturalistic materialism. I take the ideas of YEC seriously and I am digging into the peer-reviewed material from a variety of YEC sources.

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